[BluePants]

Cynic, we are at the peak of the earths warming cycle, and the combination of this and human activities are to blame.

Oil, frozen gasses, trees, all of these and many other wonderous creations store certain compounds that, if were not stored, would make this planet unliveable.
Now we are bringing them up and out of there hiding places.

They were all designed to make this planet habitabal for us humans. And now were all destroying this perfect balance, and a lot of us will experience terrible consequences in our life times.

I'm trying my best not to dwell on it, I'm just trying to be happy right now and do my best not to be play much of a role in the destruction.

Cynic, do you really think it's going to stop on it's own and cool down?

[Matc]

Cynic - but we do know the Greenhouse gasses do cause warming, so no matter whether the Earth is naturally warming or not our reintroduction of all these gasses is causing it to warm at a faster and at an unsustainable rate. Yes the human race is in danger from starvation and war but that does not mean we can ignore the problem of the environment.

[Cynic]

Originally Posted by BluePants

we are at the peak of the earths warming cycle, and the combination of this and human activities are to blame.

Nice opinion, but its just that, an opinion.

You (meaning we as humans) do not know if we are at the peak of the cycle, and we do not know how long the peaks normally last. We have some estimates and some guesses, but since the last cycle peaked when there were no instruments to measure, we really can't be sure.

We do not know if human activities prolong or reduce the cycles, since we have no measurements from the previous cycles. Human effects could be nothing more than a pebble tossed into an ocean, or it could be a tidal wave, but we don't know. What we do know is that the natural factors, volcanoes, forest fires etc, are hundreds of time more intense than human actions.

Originally Posted by BluePants

Oil, frozen gasses, trees, all of these and many other wondrous creations store certain compounds that, if were not stored, would make this planet unlivable.
Now we are bringing them up and out of there hiding places.

Volcanoes add much more to the atmosphere than human activities, as do the natural forest fires.

Originally Posted by BluePants

They were all designed to make this planet habitable for us humans. And now were all destroying this perfect balance, and a lot of us will experience terrible consequences in our life times.

Designed or evolved, the planet is habitable, and the natural forces will balance out. We are not guaranteed life, just as the dinosaurs were not. Various theories have been used to explain there demise, including the low peak of an ice age. (It does not matter if it was a meteor or natural climate changes, had dinosaurs been technological, and had they known their demise was comming, they could not have made any difference.)

Originally Posted by BluePants

I'm trying my best not to dwell on it, I'm just trying to be happy right now and do my best not to be play much of a role in the destruction.

Happiness is an attitude that is not dependant on external factors, people in squalor can be happy, people with nothing can be happy, and yet people with everything to live for commit suicide because of unhappiness. On a planet of over 6 billion people, you should not let your role make you happy or unhappy.

USA citizens are constantly baragged with inaccurate facts making them feel guilty. On a planetary scale what you do as an individual makes no real difference. Which makes that guilt misplaced. (For example we have people complain about substances in the water that have to be measured in parts per million, while people in many areas of the world drink untreated water from rivers downstream from untreated sewage dumps.)

Originally Posted by BluePants

Cynic, do you really think it's going to stop on it's own and cool down?

All of the scientific evidence says yes.

This planet has had uncounted ice and hot ages since long before humans were here. Millions of species have come and gone through theses natural processes. One theory is that the ice ages are caused by planetary wobble. Even if you were a natural leader and could convince all 6 billion people to move to one side of the planet, it would not stop the wobble.

The nay sayers seem to enjoy making people worry about things that may, (but never do) happen.

You can choose what you believe, the nay sayers or the real science...

[Cynic]

Originally Posted by Matc

Cynic - but we do know the Greenhouse gasses do cause warming, so no matter whether the Earth is naturally warming or not our reintroduction of all these gasses is causing it to warm at a faster and an an unsustainable rate. Yes the human raise is in danger from starvation and war but that does not mean we can ignore the problem of the environment.

Actually we do not know that human added Greenhouse gases make any real difference. As I mentioned above a single Volcanoe puts out more gasses than any human activity. So it is likely that human activity is like a pebble in the ocean.

We have concerns about the ozone hole, and yet we have only been able to measure that phenomena since the 1960's. we really have no idea if it is a natural process related to the natural ice age cycles or not.

On a planetary scale you and I can do nothing about the natural cycles.

We should honor the environment but not to the point that we hurt people.

We have the technology and ability to stop starvation and war, but too many people are distracted by thinking they can change the planet's natural cycles. The same people who will go to an environmental rally and buy a "Green" car, will pass a homeless person and do nothing to help...

[Matc]

I agree with you completely about the need to help people. But just because we don't know enough about the Earth's cycles doesn't mean that we shouldn't try and reduce the amount of greenhouse gasses we put out.

With the ozone we do know that chemicals we were releasing had an affect on it.

Just because an individual can't do anything doesn't mean that we shouldn't. It is by lots of individual people doing things that you help.

And I disagree about our CO2 emissions. Evidence shows that CO2 levels have remained roughly constand since preindustrial levels with an increase of 40% since industrialisation.

Where did you get your facts about CO2 emissions from volcanoes being higher as that is not true. Human activity emits somewhere on the order of 100 times more than volcanoes do. CO2 monitoring facilities around the world have shown steady increases since commencement, there are not sharp peaks when volcanoes go off which would occur if what you were saying is true. The evidence, I'm afraid, is pretty strong in the favour that we are having an affect and that it is human activity.

[consciousevolution]

"On a planetary scale you and I can do nothing about the natural cycles.
We should honor the environment but not to the point that we hurt people"

You and I can do nothing about the natural cycles on a planetary scale...is very true....i cant stop global warming, i cant make winter....come sooner..or the rain fall harder....(although i have witnessed a Hopi rain dance on a clear sunny day followed by a tremendous rain storm, but ill keep this in the tangible scientific realm).....what i can do....is make life...most importantly my life and the things that make up my life.....better....so i ride a bike, because it makes me feel more engaged then sitting in a car....i volunteer at a nature preserve so i can do my part to protect the habitat that sustains me...and in which i might one day live again....i use a hankerchief instead of paper towels...and napkins...and on and on.....yes that cant change THE WORLD....but it does change MY WORLD...and if we all changed OUR WORLDS....ultimately things would be much improved....

and then..... "we should honor the environment...but not to the point of hurting people".....again you seem to think that we as HUMANS in all our "achievement" and "advancements" are somehow separate from our environment......that there is a difference between cutting down a sequoia tree and killing a human being....to me there is little difference...and if everyone thought this way..right now...there would be no more talk about pollution...or deforestation....because it would all stop and there would be no more time to do anything other than help each other (the survivors) balance ourselves back into the ecosystem......that is what I am talking about, changing the entire cultural thought.. rewriting the ideas of culture.....if it doesn't serve the environment...(help and sustain it...and all of its parts and sub parts....ie...humans, chipmunks, eagles, ants, water systems, air... etc....) then it needs to be brought down...and re worked...or abandoned if it serves no purpose for the ecosystem.....that sustains us.....

im not bashing anyone in particular...just the cultural ideology....and would be glad to change my thought process...if someone could show me how to grow and digest plastic....or bullets

[horselover]

Well said.

It's a shame that we as individuals can't much more than we already do. I know it's not enough, and it never will be. But if we all do our part, every little bit counts.

[consciousevolution]

well you would be surprised at what a person can do....hitler...gandhi...and for that matter jesus..they all change the world...among many others...dont think each and everyone of us doesnt have the potential to produce that kind of change...although hopefully more toward the latter two... just imagine!!

[horselover]

I would really hope that we could make good changes. Hitler was one of the worst people out there. >

[Matc]

It would be nice if it were that simple. Yes individuals can change the world, but there are so many other factors involved (at it's most simplest 'the right place at the right time') meaning that most of us never could bring around that kind of change no matter how much we wanted to.

But as a collective...well that's a different matter.